In case you are not a friend of mine on FB (where this first appeared as a note last week) nor read Emergent Village, below is the final straw that precipitated my early release from my present position as pastor. I hold no ill will towards those who feel it is best I shake the dust and move on. In all actuality, my love for them has only increased along with my conviction that what I’ve written here is true – or rather, MUST be true! For if our eternal fate is determined solely by our many choices here, as opposed to the choice already made for us in Christ, then we, most assuredly, are all damned. Since writing this, #4 below has sadly become a reality in ways I was not expecting. However, that is giving way to a new reality that I am convinced God is actively writing and a new tribe – one without borders – awaits. Love does, indeed, win. To God be the glory.
What I Lost Losing Hell
While surfing through the deluge of posts and comments surrounding Bell’s approaching apocalyptic book, Love Wins, I started to think about the fears that are present on both sides of the conversation. Those defending the more traditional view of hell do so because they care very much about something they are convinced is true. I do not doubt their sincerity. Nor do I doubt the reality that whenever we shift paradigms with our beliefs, we lose something. It may be things we did not know we had.
I was raised in the church. From the time I could talk I believed in an eternal hell and that it would be full of people. This all changed about 3 years ago for me for a variety of reasons. But for 33 years I knew nothing else.
For the past few years I have given some thought to what I lost by losing hell. No doubt, there have been some major casualties. Here is a brief list of the big ones for me along with a description.
1. I lost the idol of belief.
Most of my Christian life I believed that I was saved because of what I believed. Yes, of course, I knew it was Jesus that made it possible for me to believe what I believed, but at the end of the day it was my good fortune (to be born a pastor’s kid in a predominately Christian culture) and my good sense that assured me a place in heaven versus hell. While I could not and would not have named it as such at the time, I idolized my belief of belief. When I lost hell, I also lost the the notion that I could secure anything about God’s future for myself through right (or wrong!) doctrine.
2. I lost a very powerful and useful motivator: Fear.
This was one of the hardest loses for me. Fear operated not only on others but on myself. No longer could I motivate myself to do good, to pray more, to go to church more, to be more charitable, etc., because a tormented eternity awaited me if I did not. I admit, for a long time that was a compelling motivator. It’s one I use on my kids probably far too often (not hell, mind you, although the fear of losing their Wii rights is a form of hell for my boys).
I also lost the ability to use fear as a tool to manipulate others to believe as I did. No longer could I get the satisfaction of seeing a crowded altar full of fearful, repentant sinners because I delivered a sermon that painted a picture of a very hot, miserable eternity if they died tonight without a belief in Jesus. Fear has worked wonders for getting people saved. It worked for me when I was 12 (and 13, and 14, and 15, and 16…). I had to find another motivator.
3. I lost the right to hate my enemy.
Yes, it’s true. Yes, I am well aware that Christians are supposed to love their enemies and pray for them. I’m aware that we are to love others as ourselves. But I have to confess that in my heart of hearts, that place where I worshiped a God whom I knew would send all His enemies to an everlasting hell, I really hated my enemies. Yes, I said with my lips that I “loved the sinner but hated their sin” (forget for the moment that our sinfulness is so ingrained in our person-hood that I, a sinner, am terrible at separating the sinner from the sin) and that I loved them with Christ’s love, but deep down I had a smug satisfaction that one day they would get theirs. This gave me comfort. And I can’t imagine that this deeply ingrained attitude of condescension was not obvious to those I sought to convert.
4. I lost my place in a tribe.
This is probably obvious given the many smear-blogs happening today. John Piper’s flippant, “Farewell, Rob Bell,” says it all. When I lost hell I lost my place in a “holy huddle” where I felt safe, secure and respected because I believed just like everyone else in the huddle. Losing hell made me an outcast to the sort of places I called “church” for 33 years, making me more like a nomad among Christiandom, with no real place to lay my head.
These are some of the things I have lost losing hell. I’m sure there are more. There are also some things I have gained, which perhaps I will write about at another time.
In the meantime, what have you lost when you lost hell? OR, what are you afraid of losing if you did?
Sara, thanks for sharing your opinions and your heartfelt thoughts. Open dialogue is a beautiful thing and I’m grateful to our brother Chad for sparking this conversation here. I have to say though, your comments make me equally sad. I do not believe Jesus’ primary intention was to save us from hell. Instead, his message was one of love and justice for all God’s children, and achieving justice through non-violence. It is for this powerful and most worthy cause that he sacrificed his own life for us. His example is the most magnificent example we have today of unconditional love and justice through non-violence. Jesus beautifully tells us, “I am the way, the truth, and the light.”, and I believe that message is calling us to pursue living like Jesus did and to engage, as he did, in the pursuit of social justice, peace, and brotherhood. Much love in Christ! – Gavin
Your loss is your gain.
I think I have lost the same things (and I was a pastor in a non-denominational church for 18 years). . When I lost hell after reading Mclaren’s third book in the New Kind of Christian series, I found myself being more and mroe reluctant to defend all of my “tribe’s” beliefs. I finally felt like I was released to live a way of life and invite others to join in that. The way of life Jesus calls us to. I wasn’t let go, but I never thought that anyone in my tribe understood what I was saying anymore. It was hard to pastor a flock after that. I chose to leave. Not entirely for those reasons, but they played a part in my decision. Now I feel a huuge weight lifted and I am seeing things differently for the first time in a long time.
In other words, I gained so much more than I lost. Jim
It’s unfortunate that we treat each other in such heretical ways that we forget what heresy is all about.
I mean that both ways, by the way. That while we can be under the thumb of theological bullies, we don’t realize how our theology becomes reactively shaped by it.,
Namely, there is truth – and we don’t create nor negate it with coffee shop style musings. All we do is either embrace it more firmly, or let it go. Seldom can we tell which one it is, although we think we can,
So after reading this, I come back to some things that are clear – Christians not only mistreat other Christians, but we mistreat God. We pretend as though what we say about each other or him doesn’t have consequences, which both do.
The next response will likely be, “Tony, what do you mean by that?”
Exactly what I wrote, with all of its implications.
So basically, what we do on this Earth, doesn’t matter, because God’s Love will Win. It doesn’t win here on Earth, but WILL win in eternity. People who murder recklessly, leaders who commit genocide against their own people, will be chastised, but eventually reap the reward of Heaven. The terrorists who took down the planes and Twin Towers will simply receive constructive chastisement from God, and learn from their Earthly mistakes. They were God’s children, who were/are saved, just didn’t believe it, or act upon this fact of salvation. Sounds like a really unfair, unjust God to me! Not much consolation knowing a God who tolerates and allows to go unpunished willful acts of evil by mankind.
Your #3 was actually a motivating factor for me to question how the doctrine of hell has been presented traditionally. I have grown weary of separationist accounts of eschatology, a binary worldview where some are going to heaven, others eternal damnation. To me it seems unhealthy psychologically, socially, politically (how often do we see political opponents get demonized).
Chad,
You are blessing the world with your courage. No doubt, your life will continue to be a bold spectacle of the Reign of God. Thanks for all you are doing. There are a few of us who are tuning in from Southern California and cheering you on.
Remy, I personally do no believe the message of Christ is one of revenge. It is of love, empathy, and community. Some of Jesus’ last words on the cross gave unconditional love and forgiveness to one of Rome’s hardened criminals … perhaps a “terrorist” of the Roman Empire. Our focus needs to be on creating and strengthening community, not enforcing “us vs. them” distinctions with threats of hell for them and heaven for us. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! – Gavin
Dear, dear Brother Holtz,
I am so excited and invigorated by God’s plan for you and for those of us who have been so inspired by your words and example. I also express gratitude for the witness of Rob Bell (yes, I only became aware of him as a result of your plight).
I suggest that you did not lose hell, you only lost the conventional fundamentalist interpretation of what and where hell is. As Rob said in his conversation with Lisa Miller, “We encounter hell on earth everyday.” (close enough.)
I suggest that Earth is Hell, the Garden of Eden, and As-Above-So-Below all rolled into one tangible whole. We haven’t lost it. We’ve only lost the very narrow and preposterous idea that God is capable of damning souls there (here) for eternity. It might seem like eternity, but we always have the ability to embrace salvation. It is so sad that that other flawed ideology (Constantine’s attempt to control his people perhaps?) has been thrust upon so many of us since birth.
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!
I welcome the opportunity to join your new tribe, whether that be near or far.
GODSPEED.
Will Edwards
On “belief,” “heaven,” “hell,” the meaning of Jesus’ sacrifice/execution:
Our experience of heaven and hell are created by our thoughts, beliefs, and actions, right here and right now. We don’t have to wait for “the afterlife.” This is the reality of our co-creation of our reality through our thinking.
Even if we don’t believe in “eternal hell” (in the afterlife), there there will always be consequences for our thoughts and actions (which are based on our beliefs or world view). But this does not equate to “eternal hell” (unless that is what we believe). OMG! We have a choice? Yes, we do! That goes back to the Genesis story. Humans have free will.
The consequences (of our thoughts/beliefs and actions) are ours to bear, but they are also ours to change. Repentance means to “turn around,” to change our mind, to change our thinking. We can always choose to think new thoughts. Each new thought is a new cause with a different effect.
It appears to me that the meaning of Jesus rising from the dead, was to demonstrate that life is eternal. The physical body may change it’s form, but the life of the soul continues eternally.
Was his execution a sacrifice? I don’t know. It does fit neatly into the prevailing mythology of the ancient Hebrew tribes. (Which Jesus was trying to to change). That may have been the only way that those telling and writing about it could put meaning to it. It may have been the way the execution was rationalized by the Roman Empire after they cannonized Christianity.
I think Jesus was teaching about the personal experience of Spirit, and that each human being could experience this for him/her self.
“The Father is in me and I am in the Father.” This was true for Jesus and it is also true for us.
Thank you,
And so is is.
Anthony and Sarah,
Jesus didn’t die to save us from hell. He died to reverse the curse of Adam (mortal DEATH). If you read Genesis 2, the price for since all the way from the beginning was death, not hell. Jesus died to bring all people back to life, and to recover everything that Adam lost.
Also if you notice, hell is never mentioned in the Old Testament, not once–unless you read the KJV, but the KJV mistranslated Sheol as hell whenever they wanted to convey the destination of the wicked, but they translated Sheol as grave whenever it was talking about the death of the righteous. KJV and The Message are the ONLY popular translations that use the word hell in the OT. If hell is the stakes for sin, don’t you find that pretty unfair? Especially for the folks in the OT times.
Hell is one of those things that seem to get Christians and non-Christians debating its existence. Since Julie brought up Adam and the curse of mortal death, let us look at death. I believe that death is a separation and in the case of mortal death, it is the separation of spirit and soul from the body. A mortal death will happen to everyone (Heb 9:27), but the Bible refers to a second death (Rev 2:11, 20:6, 20:14 and 21:8). What is the second death? The second death is a separation of the spirit and soul of a man/woman from God and it is this death that Jesus died for and not the first death which will happen to us all (Heb 9:27).
Now many people, Christians included, ask how can a loving God send someone to hell? The answer is — He doesn’t want to send anyone to hell (2 Peter 3:9); in fact He died a horrible death on the Cross to prevent it. The reason people will end up in hell is because of the Holiness of God; sinners can not stand in the presence of a Holy God (Heb 12:14). All Christians are covered by the Blood of Jesus and so they can rightfully stand before a holy God. Is there a Hell? Revelation mentions a place of torment and I believe that this place of torment is a place completely void of the attributes of God, a place of pure evil. So why would anyone that claims there is no hell even want to take a chance that it exists as the Bible keeps telling us and then end up there forever and ever with no hope of escape? Thank God for John 3:16, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Bless you for waking up to the truth. You are a little closer to understanding your true nature. Hell is an illusion, and the Kingdom of Heaven is within you. “I and my Father are one”.
I think you might be looking way to deep trying to twist the fact that there is no hell. The bible is not that hard to understand. It is not a book to look super deep into and find yourself. You can take the bible as God intended you to take it, Literary.
And for the person Rich Koster that said “Will you read Psalm 137 and run out looking for some babies to dash upon the rock? I didn’t think so.”
Actually that verse is a prophecy. God is foretelling the future; He is not giving instructions on what He wants others to do. This is very important. Babylon had been exceedingly cruel to Israel as well as to other nations. In judgment, they would receive the cruelty they had given. However, the Israelites to whom this psalm is written were not the ones who would apply the judgment. That was left to the Medes and the Persians. God was not instructing them what to do; He was telling them what would happen.
The man (solider maybe) who does this thing shall be happy. However, there is nothing to indicate that God encourages this particular action. Rather, He is predicting that those who are part of this slaughter will rejoice, will be happy in their actions, will be rewarded for their cruelty, etc. They will probably even go about bragging about their actions.
Read the whole story before you assume that God is trying make you look deep inside yourself to find out what smashing babies against rocks mean. It actually means exactly what it says. Anywho…
Although I believe in hell and a just God. Fear is not what keeps me going. I don’t really think fear is what keeps anyone with God. Sure, maybe it gets someone saved at first. Really though, it’s the relationship with God that keeps them.
Fear always dies out overtime, it happens all the time. People got afraid when the 911 happened. Then their fear died off. ect..
While fear may be a good motivator, it’s definitely not a good maintainer. I never would use fear or hell in telling people about Christ. Fear always dies off. People don’t REALLY come to God out of fear, they come to have a relationship and knowing that they have a purpose in life. You aren’t just dust in the wind.
In response to Craig,
Actually, I believe the Bible teaches that everyone must die a second death as well as a first death. The second death is the putting to death of our old nature. For some it comes voluntarily during this lifetime. For others, it will be enforced in a later age (the Judgment). You can see much evidence of this in the NT:
Matt. 16:24–25: “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.”
Rom. 8:13: “…for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”
Gal 2:20: “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me…”
Gal. 5:24: “Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.”
For those who opt to do it in this lifetime, there is a special reward that is only understood with Hebrew lenses on Scriptures (too long for this reply).
I might add that if Jesus died a second death the way you suggest (spiritual separation from God), and he took the punishment for my sins, then Jesus would have had to go to hell in my place, forever.
I encourage you to understand that the ultimate satisfaction for God with sinners is not casting them out of His presence eternally, but reconciling with them. If God leaves a great portion of His creation unfixed, then we should say that Satan wins and God loses. But God clearly says throughout the Bible that He will restore and reconcile all things.
This is a great verse, and when translated correctly, fits the Jewish understanding of God reconciling all people in a plan of ages perfectly. The verse is speaking of believing in God for “eonian life” or life in the age that you are now living. It actually says: For God so loves the world (system) that He gave His only generated Son, that whosoever is believing in Him will not be perishing, but having eonian life.” The Good News of the Bible is that as soon as person is connected to the Vine, they are experiencing eonian life–life in this age. There are more ages to come, as Paul often spoke of. When we connect to the Vine, we will also experiencing eonian life in the eons to come.
Julie, that is a great explanation. So many Christians have been fed a very twisted interpretation of what the grave actually is referring to and it’s sadly translated into the word “hell” that holds it’s own modern definition that doesn’t fit the scriptures at all. But a friend shared a passage that helped me to understand why so many people are so willing to accept this crooked teaching about God.
Proverbs 18: 25 With the merciful you show yourself merciful;
with the blameless man you show yourself blameless;
26 with the purified you show yourself pure;
and with the crooked you make yourself seem tortuous. <<<eye opening
2 Samuel 22:26- 27 26 “With the merciful you show yourself merciful;
with the blameless man you show yourself blameless;
27 with the purified you deal purely,
and with the crooked you make yourself seem tortuous. <<<it was worth repeating
Those who see God as torturous..have crooked thinking. Now enters Jesus… "repent" meaning change your mind! Jesus shows us that God is Father and that he loves us! He tells us that we're included! We're not Jews..we would be considered Gentiles..the adopted ones. The commission..go tell the world! We're reconciled!
2 Cor 5:19 For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people's sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation.
The primary Gospel.. you're reconciled! Believe that!
[...] over the head with. If you’re interested in exactly what he said, they are here, here and here. I like this guy and think he’s the kind of pastor the church needs these days. It [...]
[...] via What I Lost Losing Hell : Dancing on Saturday. [...]
In response to Julie,
The death to self that you refer to is not the second death; let’s look at the following verses that relate to the second:
2Th 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
“everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord” this refers to the soul of man being eternally separated from God and not a death to self.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
This refers to life with God and death with wrath.
Joh 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Resurrection to life is a resurrection to life with God and the resurrection of damnation is a resurrection to a life eternally separated from God or the second death.
John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
To die in your sins without the Blood of Christ means you can not be with him in the resurrected life.
Now if we were to return back to the book of Revelation to look at the references to the second death we find the following:
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The second death has no power over us so the second death could not be the putting to death our old nature.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
This is an interesting verse; the death in form of the separation of the soul from the body is no longer needed. Hell is the place to which the separated soul is placed once separated from the body in the first death and is also no longer needed, for all souls will be resurrected whether saved or unsaved (John 5:28-29). Both death and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire. The verse now moves onto the second death, which can only be an eternal separation from God.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Here the Bible says that the lake of fire and the second death are one and the same.
The second death is real and the Bible indicates that it has to do with eternal separation from God. Hell and the lake of fire are real. The lake of fire is the final destination of those who do not receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
There are those that may want to believe that hell and the lake of fire are not real so that they do not have to deal with the lost and the guilt they may feel over the lost. But we are not responsible for their salvation, only to share the Good News of the Gospel and to warn them of their impending doom after their physical death if they have not accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior. Salvation is the job of the Holy Spirit; we are responsible for the truth. Paul went to the Corinthian to preach Jesus and Christ crucified (1 Cor 2:1-5) and this is our job as well to give the world the good news. I was presented with the truth but it was by revelation from the Holy Spirit by which I was saved. Someone may ask what of those that never hear the truth? Roman 1:20 says “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:” and this implies that the truth of God is out there and the Holy Spirit can use this to give a revelation of God and Christ. I can not save everyone in fact I can save no one. God directs me to speak to those He wants me to speak to and for them I can only bring them to the Cross. Once at the Cross it is up to that person and the Holy Spirit for “he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him” (Heb 5:9) and “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith” (Heb 12:2).
One last thing about ministering to the lost, we are to love them but loving them is not going to save them. What saves them is the truth of Jesus Christ and Him crucified. John 8:32 say “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. “ , so if you are truly loving them you will give them the truth.
Well if you’ve come to the conclusion there is an eternal hell and you are genuinely trying to save people from it, that at least shows that you care about people.
However with regard to:
“There are those that may want to believe that hell and the lake of fire are not real so that they do not have to deal with the lost and the guilt they may feel over the lost”.
Seems to me like Romans 1 always comes up for the same reason! Easy to say people are ‘without excuse’ if they’ve never even heard of Jesus.
Also Chad’s other post explains some of the meaning behind the mistranslated “everlasting punishment”:
http://chadholtz.net/2011/03/22/eternal-punishment-really/
Chad – were you really motivated to pray and be charitable because of a fear of hell?
everyone on this post seems very well versed in scripture and very genuine – God Bless you all
I like this kinds of debate and discussion: very cool.
My only thought is of my friends who have taken this ‘liberal’ Christian view of hell (and other topics coming under review by the ‘logical’ Christian thinker) and this has lead them (eventually) straight to the view that there must be more than one way to God and that Jesus was just one of them.
(That may be o.k. for some of you (maybe non of you?) , but not me)
Every friend who was able to ‘study’ the scripture and completely erase any possibility that there is an eternal separation from God (hell – flames or not) Unraveled their entire faith in Jesus eventually.
A lot of what I am hearing sounds very new age and a “I’m o.k. – your o.k.” belief system that I see becoming more popular: ‘I can pick and choose what kind of belief in Jesus I want to have’.
My 2 cents
Thank you, Tessie.
You remind me of a sermon I once heard a UMC bishop preach. He told a story about a pastor friend of his who preached a revival service he was attending. The pastor preached with utmost conviction about all the reasons so many people are going to hell. He yelled and shouted and moved about the pulpit to show how serious he was, and how hot hell would be. He announced that many in their midst right now would be in hell if they did not repent.
After the sermon the two of them relaxed in the pastors office and the conversation went something like this:
Pastor: So what did you think of the sermon?
Bishop: It wasn’t bad.
Pastor: Wasn’t bad? Do you mean to tell me that they didn’t need to hear about hell and the many who will be there?
Bishop: Yes, I’m sure they do. But if you are going to say that I would expect to at least see tears in your eyes when you do.
Everyone ‘picks and chooses’. I know of no one who follows the bible to the letter. They decide what is relevant and what is for another time and place.
(And those who try to follow it to the letter either end up mad or trying to control other groups of people with a multitude of laws, or both!).
Realising that there is no eternal hell-hole does not mean “all religions lead to God” or similar. It means you realise that NO religion leads to God!
It does not mean you think Jesus is not the only way, all ways are valid. For me it actually makes Christ’s work even MORE valid – because it is stronger than the work of Adam.
Traditional teaching says – Adam led us ALL to sin and hell, but Christ can only deliver a tiny number of us out of that. What Adam did was too strong for Jesus?
No way!!
It’s simple. If God is Love, and God is all (omnipresent) where exactly can this hell exist? And why would a God that is all Love, create such a thing. You are all right. Best Wishes.
Obviously you do not understand the righteousness of the LORD, the nature of iniquity and sin, and the fact that all we can do for justification before the LORD is believe.
However, the believing that brings about salvation is not having an opinion or holding to something without sure knowledge. Rather, it is trust in what is perceived through the instrument of faith concerning who the Lord Jesus Christ is – meaning His person, His character, His nature.
If you do not come to know Him personally, how can you possibly trust Him? If you cannot perceive the truth of who the LORD God is and why we need a Savior through the operation of faith, how can the LORD reason with you about where you stand?
You are in a very dangerous position.
[...] Even more recently, the ‘Net has been abuzz with news that a United Methodist pastor has been “fired” by his church because he agreed with Bell’s notions in a blog posting. [...]
[...] my church). I would argue that this sermon says pretty much the same things I say in my post, What I Lost Losing Hell, only in a different way. For those who contend that what I or Rob Bell or countless others [...]
Chad, I welcome you to the club as well. This glorious message is growing stronger every day, and I thank God for the courage of Rob Bell to lay it all out there. All those thoughts that so many of us raised in traditional evangelicalism have harbored, if not consciously, at least latently in our God-given moral fiber. I point everybody whose hearts are being opened by the Father to the best explanation and teaching I know on the subject, Dr. Stephen Jones’ book “Creation’s Jubilee”. I believe he will be known in the coming decades as one of the most gifted teachers and writers on the subject of the Restoration of All Things as it takes it’s rightful place at the helm of Christian thought.
http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/book_list.cfm
I think: that when we say that there is no ‘heaven or hell’ or that “I just cant believe Adam caused sin for all man but Jesus could only save a few’ we make God a bigger piece of crap than a God who would have a hell at all. It takes us back to why wouldn’t he make us ‘to know’ – why all the suffering, unless you mix eastern religion with your Christianity (which isn’t Christianity) that we ‘learn from it – then it is all for nothing – if Jesus is who he said he is, and he did what he said he did – then the Bible is secure and trustworthy – and the bible clearly says that there is the potential for a separation from God (fire or no fire -suffering or no suffering – separation from God = hell) You have a Jesus issue, nothing else.
I’ll admit – I am kind of a zealot – but I am not out to offend or gloat in what I believe – I feel we are having less of a christian discussion about hell and more of a conversation about mixing beliesf that show Christianity is wrong about hell – there is a difference.
YES!
Indeed Tessie, God’s grace does super-abound. Not all have had the the God given grace to taste that yet, but our loving God will not exclude the ignorant, or the blind. Indeed, the second Adam’s work, that of Jesus Christ does much more abound.
Colin, hell as we have been taught about hell, even if only briefly in the church, has been overlaid with so much “other” ideas, that most of us do not know what we believe anymore. It is time we discover what we in this time really believe about the “place” of hell. Over the centuries, the concept of hell has been transferred from one age to the next until we are left with an idea that is more man’s than God’s. For this reason, we really ought to step back and ponder the question and take time for our own thoughts to jell while searching the scriptures – and while we do, we should listen to the others out there who are courageous and who have been willing to listen to what God really says about this. Don’t be afraid of what you will find. It is God’s goodness that leads us to repentance.
Well written, entirely true, abundantly fitting. That is the gospel of reconciliation as taught by Paul. Excellent.
The bible scripture you quoted about the second death is of interest to me. The context of the Revelation quotes (Rev 2:11, 20:6, 20:14 and 21:8) relates to “resurrections”. We know of resurrection in the bible because Jesus was resurrected from death to life. He is The First of the first fruits of God. Rev 2:11 is speaking about “conquering” – that is overcoming (Greek = nikaō meaning “overcome”). Overcome what? 1 John 5:4 (ESV) 4 “For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.” Our faith is in Jesus Christ. That makes us over-comers. We have our “victory” in HIM. In Rev. 2:11, perhaps the church of Smyrna – either figuratively or in reality, did not have faith – perhaps their faith was an ornament or lost in man’s traditions. I don’t know. However, living faith is full trust in Jesus and what He has won for us, with living faith – faith alive in us – a real part of our lives. So these who overcome in this specific place, are assured that they will not experience “second death”. Now we are getting to the question of “the second death.”
The “the” in “the second death” seems to indicate at least to me, that it is specific like “a kingdom of God” as compared to “the kingdom of God.” So lets look and see if the other verses in Revelation speak to a “the” second death. Well in context, Rev. 20:6 speaks of dead people coming back to life – in was is referred to as “the first resurrection.” Again “the” is here as compared to a general resurrection. Indeed, in context, dead people are coming back to life. Revelation 20:6 (ESV), 6 “Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.”
The context gives the impression that this is literal – Revelation 20:4 (ESV), 4 “Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” It is a bit tough to imagine losing your head and dying in a figurative sense. To me, this appears to be a literal expression. I suppose you could stretch it to mean anything, but why torture the scriptures?
So we have those who have been beheaded, and we can’t now get into that, but suffice to say that the book of Revelation answers this quite well. In any case, these beheaded come back to life in “the first resurrection.” Ah ha, then there is a “first resurrection” so does that mean there is a “second resurrection?” Does that “second resurrection have something to do with “the second death?”
Let’s look:
Revelation 20:11–14 (ESV) Judgment Before the Great White Throne, 11 “Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.”
The context here is after the 1000 years Kingdom of Christ reign on earth (Revelation 20:7), there is a second resurrection – I will call it that here because it obviously follows this first resurrection discussed above. This second resurrection is unto judgment. After the 1000 years, notice, the “dead” were standing before HIM. So it appears, these dead did not participate in the first resurrection and they are now resurrected after the 1000 years. Does this mean, they are alive again. It appears so.
And if so, might they die again?
Revelation 21:7–8 (ESV), 7 “The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
Now before we focus upon the “sins” and punishments of Rev. 21:7-8, let’s look again at 1 John 5:4 (ESV) 4 “For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.” Those in Revelation 21:7-8 remain in their sins. They have rejected the knowledge of God and they have rejected the gifts of God. Whatever the cause, it wasn’t because God did not give them the chance, that is for sure. But so much of this must wait for another day of discussion.
So it appears that it is possible that some few comparatively will die “the second death”, but we might just stop here and allow you to collect your thoughts about this. Without getting too far away from what we are discussing here, lets just say, Our Great God is a Good and Loving God and He does have a wonderful plan for mankind. (HINT: If there is a First Fruit, might there be a “second fruit”?)
In Jesus Glorious name.
It is not so much about the fear of hell as it is not the gospel. The component of fear is an expected consequence. The objection to hell is that it is not well based upon a scriptural foundation as it is upon a foundation of tradition. Most of our mental images of hell are based upon man’s interpretations and upon the foundations of other preceding ideas.
[...] who was removed for his views on hell. Holtz claims after he posted entries on Facebook and personal blog about his doubting a literal hell, the congregants at Marrow’s Chapel United Methodist Church [...]
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Your willingness to characterize Mr. Holtz’s thoughts as a lack of understanding is a perfect illustration of the tribalism Holtz speaks of. A man confident enough to state that he knows the will of God is a man I’m not confident in listening to.
[...] the first time I have gone public. About a month before I was dismissed as pastor for writing, “What I Lost Losing Hell” I preached a sermon from the Old Testament lection assigned that day, Deuteronomy 30:19, which [...]
Keep moving in the direction of your heart’s trajectory. Peace be with you . . . and everyone. Everyone.
Colin: You’re wrong! You’re wrong, you’re wrong, you’re wrong!
I very much appreciated your tone/spirit. It seems to me that very few people who share your views are able to do so without demonizing those they disagree with. You didn’t do that. Kudos to you!-Stephen
[...] few months ago I ended up in the news because I wrote a piece titled, “What I Lost Losing Hell.” One of the four things I listed in that post was the right to hate my enemy. I [...]
I am currently struggling to feel settled in a church home because of this very thing. That pesky Rob Bell, jsut messing us all up! LOL. My freshest struggle is if I believe in the Bible(as God’s word interpreted by man accurately and inaccurately perhaps) and consider myself saved, then how can I not see a need for others to be saved? I go with “I Don’t Know” and will be ok with that. Now I just want to find the right church for my family that is oK with it too. Nomads! UGH.